Comments on: Proposition 8 and the California Supreme Court http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/ the personal blog of Neil Kramer Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:38:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Cold Spaghetti » Blog Archive » May Just Posts: Ga Gona Mathata http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236624 Cold Spaghetti » Blog Archive » May Just Posts: Ga Gona Mathata Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:54:23 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236624 [...] Neil at Citizen of the Month with Proposition 8 and the California Supreme Court [...] [...] Neil at Citizen of the Month with Proposition 8 and the California Supreme Court [...]

]]> By: May Just Posts « collecting tokens http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236603 May Just Posts « collecting tokens Mon, 08 Jun 2009 11:44:52 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236603 [...] Neil at Citizen of the Month with Proposition 8 and the California Supreme Court [...] [...] Neil at Citizen of the Month with Proposition 8 and the California Supreme Court [...]

]]> By: Christine http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236548 Christine Thu, 04 Jun 2009 05:10:34 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236548 It's a thorny subject, and I'm glad you articulated my stance...I couldn't have done nearly as well. I'm totally in favor of gay marriage; I look forward to the day when this issue is behind us. But until then... As you stated, Neil, this is at its core a fight over the term "marriage." Civil unions are recognized in California; they give homosexual unions the same rights as heterosexual marriages. They just are not called 'marriages.' As Elton John said, "I don’t want to be married. I’m very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership. The word ’marriage,’ I think, puts a lot of people off. You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships." Also, the idea that all who oppose gay marriage are bigoted, ignorant, or homophobic is problematic considering President Obama's take on the issue. It’s a thorny subject, and I’m glad you articulated my stance…I couldn’t have done nearly as well.

I’m totally in favor of gay marriage; I look forward to the day when this issue is behind us. But until then…

As you stated, Neil, this is at its core a fight over the term “marriage.” Civil unions are recognized in California; they give homosexual unions the same rights as heterosexual marriages. They just are not called ‘marriages.’

As Elton John said, “I don’t want to be married. I’m very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership. The word ’marriage,’ I think, puts a lot of people off.

You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships.”

Also, the idea that all who oppose gay marriage are bigoted, ignorant, or homophobic is problematic considering President Obama’s take on the issue.

]]> By: paola http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236523 paola Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:50:25 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236523 Proposition 8 was passes a couple a months ago but was taken to California’s Supreme Court by gay and lesbian activists for being discriminatory against them. Prop 8 was put out to voters, threw out the state, to decide whether a marriage between gays and lesbians was legal in the state of California. When it was said and done, the people of California decided that a marriage can only be legal between a man and a woman and the Supreme Court of California upheld it on Tuesday but said the 18,000 same-sex weddings that took place before the prohibition passed are still valid. So in a way gays and lesbians didn’t lose everything after all. Now in a way, I understand why the Supreme Court upheld the decision. I believe that if they were to overturn it, any other proposition passed that would be agreed by another group would challenge in the supreme court and it would be start of something chaotic were voters would be confuse because if they thought their proposition passed and that was that, then they would be in a rude awakening. Was it the right decision? It depends who you ask and what their belief is. Gays and lesbians believe they were offended by prop 8. Supporters of prop 8 say a different story. I on the other hand stand in the middle. I understand what the gay and lesbian community is coming from but also what the supporters for prop 8. It’s a grey area. Now there’s word that gay rights supporters could also appeal in the federal courts, arguing Proposition 8 violates the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution. So there’s a never ending story to it. It goes to show that when people believe in something and they unite, anything is possible. Proposition 8 was passes a couple a months ago but was taken to California’s Supreme Court by gay and lesbian activists for being discriminatory against them. Prop 8 was put out to voters, threw out the state, to decide whether a marriage between gays and lesbians was legal in the state of California. When it was said and done, the people of California decided that a marriage can only be legal between a man and a woman and the Supreme Court of California upheld it on Tuesday but said the 18,000 same-sex weddings that took place before the prohibition passed are still valid. So in a way gays and lesbians didn’t lose everything after all. Now in a way, I understand why the Supreme Court upheld the decision. I believe that if they were to overturn it, any other proposition passed that would be agreed by another group would challenge in the supreme court and it would be start of something chaotic were voters would be confuse because if they thought their proposition passed and that was that, then they would be in a rude awakening. Was it the right decision? It depends who you ask and what their belief is. Gays and lesbians believe they were offended by prop 8. Supporters of prop 8 say a different story. I on the other hand stand in the middle. I understand what the gay and lesbian community is coming from but also what the supporters for prop 8. It’s a grey area. Now there’s word that gay rights supporters could also appeal in the federal courts, arguing Proposition 8 violates the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution. So there’s a never ending story to it. It goes to show that when people believe in something and they unite, anything is possible.

]]> By: LiteralDan http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236464 LiteralDan Fri, 29 May 2009 06:21:40 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236464 I agree. Much as it burns, I agree. Way to put it all out there. I agree. Much as it burns, I agree. Way to put it all out there.

]]> By: mckay http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236462 mckay Fri, 29 May 2009 06:10:26 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236462 as a conservative in both politics and religion...and as a former theatre major with many gay friends, i say this: "Why doesn't the gay community just come up with their own awesome definition of a gay life union? Call it something new and unique; something that fits the gay lifestyle and true desire for a lifetime commitment with a same sex partner. Maybe gay people can succeed in their version of marriage even better than the archaic version of traditional marriage. They deserve to have a fresh new label for their gay commitment. Call it something other than marriage and i'm all for it." as a conservative in both politics and religion…and as a former theatre major with many gay friends, i say this:

“Why doesn’t the gay community just come up with their own awesome definition of a gay life union? Call it something new and unique; something that fits the gay lifestyle and true desire for a lifetime commitment with a same sex partner. Maybe gay people can succeed in their version of marriage even better than the archaic version of traditional marriage. They deserve to have a fresh new label for their gay commitment. Call it something other than marriage and i’m all for it.”

]]> By: Backpacking Dad http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236456 Backpacking Dad Fri, 29 May 2009 04:51:01 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236456 The comment about old people dying off left on my post was emphatic, but not misguided. Although pro Prop 8 supporters come from all races, classes, age groups, etc... older voters supported Prop 8 in much greater numbers than younger voters. Time's arrow will decide the issue even if the courts don't. More initiatives, later, when the currently influential, older voters are no longer influential or voters, will be successful if the trend of cultural acceptance of gay relationships ages along with the younger population that embraces it now. I didn't write the comment, but I don't disagree with the abbreviated analysis contained in it. As for who I am mad at...well, I'm not mad. I'm disappointed that the court didn't think Prop 8 had wide-reaching implications within the Constitution (that it revised what the constitution means by "equality"). But I was never under the illusion that the court was being asked to decide if the VOTERS had been wrong. That wasn't the question posed. The question posed was whether the initiative itself was an improper vehicle because of the decision against Prop 22 the year before. The court said it was fine, and that's disappointing. They weren't asked a moral question though, so I have no anger at them as though they did something immoral. If someone feels anger at the court it is misdirected. That doesn't mean that the deicison wasn't a reminder, and reignition of the anger at those voters who supporter Prop 8 in the first place. The comment about old people dying off left on my post was emphatic, but not misguided. Although pro Prop 8 supporters come from all races, classes, age groups, etc… older voters supported Prop 8 in much greater numbers than younger voters. Time’s arrow will decide the issue even if the courts don’t. More initiatives, later, when the currently influential, older voters are no longer influential or voters, will be successful if the trend of cultural acceptance of gay relationships ages along with the younger population that embraces it now.

I didn’t write the comment, but I don’t disagree with the abbreviated analysis contained in it.

As for who I am mad at…well, I’m not mad. I’m disappointed that the court didn’t think Prop 8 had wide-reaching implications within the Constitution (that it revised what the constitution means by “equality”). But I was never under the illusion that the court was being asked to decide if the VOTERS had been wrong. That wasn’t the question posed. The question posed was whether the initiative itself was an improper vehicle because of the decision against Prop 22 the year before. The court said it was fine, and that’s disappointing. They weren’t asked a moral question though, so I have no anger at them as though they did something immoral.

If someone feels anger at the court it is misdirected. That doesn’t mean that the deicison wasn’t a reminder, and reignition of the anger at those voters who supporter Prop 8 in the first place.

]]> By: TRO http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236439 TRO Thu, 28 May 2009 23:23:32 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236439 Too much for me to comment on past the obvious fact that the best way for those to support gay marriage to actually achieve their goals is through rational and honest discourse with those who do not. You will never win this issue by demonizing the other side. What you need to do is work on convincing those people in the middle to come your way and you do that with positive debate. Too much for me to comment on past the obvious fact that the best way for those to support gay marriage to actually achieve their goals is through rational and honest discourse with those who do not. You will never win this issue by demonizing the other side. What you need to do is work on convincing those people in the middle to come your way and you do that with positive debate.

]]> By: Deb on the Rocks http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236422 Deb on the Rocks Thu, 28 May 2009 15:23:19 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236422 You are missing one HUGE point in your logic: Yes, voting is sacred. Because of that it is very important to examine what gets on the ballot. Should Prop 8 have been on the ballot? If the answer is no and many people committed to justice, equality and Constitutional right believe, then overturning it would not have negated the votes cast in favor of 8. We all agree it is not okay to put just anything up to a vote: this country never intended that sort of free-for-all (or issues put up based on the highest out of state bidder), and we have checks and balances to mitigate against that danger. So why and how did Prop 8 get on the ballot in the first place, and why is it okay to create exceptions to rules? The California Supreme Court let people down by deciding that the issue was appropriate for a popular election. And your religious voter analysis--that is EXACTLY why the Supreme Court should have stepped in. You are missing one HUGE point in your logic:

Yes, voting is sacred. Because of that it is very important to examine what gets on the ballot.

Should Prop 8 have been on the ballot? If the answer is no and many people committed to justice, equality and Constitutional right believe, then overturning it would not have negated the votes cast in favor of 8.

We all agree it is not okay to put just anything up to a vote: this country never intended that sort of free-for-all (or issues put up based on the highest out of state bidder), and we have checks and balances to mitigate against that danger. So why and how did Prop 8 get on the ballot in the first place, and why is it okay to create exceptions to rules? The California Supreme Court let people down by deciding that the issue was appropriate for a popular election.

And your religious voter analysis–that is EXACTLY why the Supreme Court should have stepped in.

]]> By: peter wang http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/2009/05/27/proposition-8-and-the-california-supreme-court/comment-page-1/#comment-236421 peter wang Thu, 28 May 2009 15:07:29 +0000 http://www.citizenofthemonth.com/?p=4996#comment-236421 if our country socialize medicine,we would not have this dispute.only thing that our gay friends want is access to health benefits that a couples get when they are married.socialized medicine for all and let christian conservative keep what marriage is between a man and a woman.why make a scene over marriage if they get socialized benefits. if our country socialize medicine,we would not have this dispute.only thing that our gay friends want is access to health benefits that a couples get when they are married.socialized medicine for all and let christian conservative keep what marriage is between a man and a woman.why make a scene over marriage if they get socialized benefits.

]]>